McAfee Declares Innocence

At 4:13 this morning I was awoken by a phone call

from John McAfee

who was calling to tell me that the police were closing in.

He had spent the night in an undisclosed house in Belize,

sleeping on a bed infested with lice.

And that he felt that the end was near.

That they would arrest him at any minute,

but he was not going to surrender

because he was convinced that they would kill him.

I've been following McAfee's case in Belize

for the past six months,

ever since April 30th when the police raided him

and excused him of being a drug trafficker

and possessing illegal fire arms.

Over those six months,

I've spent weeks in Belize and interviewed McAfee

both in person and on the telephone,

probably over a hundred hours of interviews,

and I can say without a doubt

that he is a very complex person.

But whether or not he's a murderer is yet to be seen.

I recorded McAfee's phone calls to me this morning

with his permission,

and what follows are those calls.

One of the charges against you is that

you're a psychopath.

What do you have to say about that?

[John] Well, if I were a psychopath,

I would not be competent to comment on it,

other than to say yes or no.

And either one if I were a psychopath would be irrelevant.

I do not think I'm a psychopath.

I like people.

I think psychopaths are sort of antisocial folks

that hate people.

I tend to love people.

I tend to love people in spite of their faults.

And in spite of the things that they do

or attempt to do to me.

You're well aware of Marcia for example

who plotted for three months to have me kidnapped

for money.

And I still talk to Marcia

and she lived with me after that for two additional months

before it finally got too intense.

[Joshua] This is a good question.

Why do you surround yourself

with people of questionable character?

[John] Well, I surround myself with people of

unquestionable character, too.

Eddie Antona, I don't know a more honest

God-fearing person.

Yourself, I think I befriended you and embraced you

as I embraced anyone else.

I'm living in a country where most people are questionable.

I'm sorry.

When I was at the river,

I'm right next to Carmelita,

a very poor district, very high crime.

Almost everybody steals.

They're the people I'm with.

I surround myself and embrace wherever I am.

Eddie Antona and hope the wife Katrina,

I have just as many friends of high character

as I do of low.

I just don't discriminate.

People are people.

I think that people are

(coughs)

are a product of their conditioning.

You take a person and put them in an environment

where everybody steals.

You're beaten.

You starve.

You see your family doing questionable things.

That's what you do.

You follow the crowd.

That doesn't mean that your heart, your soul

is violated to the point that you're no longer human.

It simply means that maybe you can change.

Maybe if you're loved enough or embraced enough,

your heart will open and you see a different path.

Unfortunately, my experience has been

that very few do.

But that doesn't mean that I should turn cynical

and say well screw it.

You can't help anybody.

[Joshua] Right.

And more specifically in terms of people like Eddie McKoy

who the government say is a gangster of the highest level,

why would you associate with him?

[John] That association was kind of forced on me.

Eddie was actually hired to kill me.

Over a period of three months dodging him,

simply got to know his character a little bit.

He's definitely a bad man.

I associate with him because he among other things

interests me.

I've never seen anything like him.

I've never imagined anything like Eddie.

In my associations, by the way,

I don't sleep with him.

I don't hang out with him a lot.

Occasionally we spend time.

Occasionally we talk.

It's fascinating.

You would like to do it yourself.

If you could spend an hour talking to Eddie

the way he talks to me about the reality of his life,

you would do it.

Of course you would write a story about it.

But that's the question.

[Joshua] Yeah.

Let's talk about the drugs.

The accusations that you are dealing in drugs,

specifically your postings about MDPV,

which seemed to indicate

[John] My posting what now?

[Joshua] Your postings about MDPV.

[John] Right.

[Joshua] On blue light which seemed to indicate

that you have produced 50 pounds of MDPV.

[John] (laughing) Well, first of all, I wouldn't know how

to produce 50 pounds of MDVP.

I'm not a chemist.

I actually almost failed organic chemistry in college.

Probably less because of my intelligence

and more because of women.

I wouldn't know how.

I wouldn't have the vaguest clue how.

I mean that lab gear that's in the lab,

I can do a dog and pony show and point to things

and give their names.

I wouldn't have a clue how to use them.

Jeez.

So, number one, I wouldn't know how.

Number two for what purpose?

I don't know what the price is

or how you would market it or anything else.

But there's gotta be easier and cheaper ways to make money.

I mean probably if I were motivated to that extent

that I would start a lab,

I'd write some software first.

Or at least design some and pay someone

a few dollars to write it.

It would make more money.

[Joshua] Right.

[John] But secondly I am just violently opposed to drugs.

I think that drugs are the evil of the society.

They do remove the humanity.

I think people like Tino who when he is sober

and when he is not on drugs,

is honest to God a sweet man.

He is.

He did not drink,

did not take drugs the entire time he was at my house

doing the photographs for your magazine.

Sweet, respectful.

You put a beer in him

or you put some cocaine in him

or whatever it is that he takes,

he turns into a monster of the highest order.

He is the prototype of the drugged up personality.

So why on earth?

I'm stupid enough without drugs,

and my life is fucked up enough without drugs

and always has been.

I don't need to add to it, sir.

[Joshua] And the, one of allegations is that

during the time that you've been in Belize

you've become increasingly erratic.

Your behavior has become increasingly unpredictable.

To what do you attribute that?

[John] You give me any human being with any character

and you storm their house

without warning,

shoot a dog,

one you love,

actually I love all my dogs.

And treats them the way that I've been treated,

and then make threats,

and then start harassing them,

Trust me.

You'd become erratic and unpredictable.

Most people may have done worse.

I think because of my age and experience

and I'm a very balanced person

and try to make light of almost all situations

that happen to me,

and trying to find humor in everything,

I think I've survived this pretty well.

But Jesus, Josh, you would be erratic.

Anybody would be erratic.

Right now, sir, I am holed up in a place

where the mattress here has

what are those things that are crawling?

That has lice.

I've never experienced that before.

I'm holed up in this place.

And have limited contact with anyone.

(phone rings)

[Joshua] Hi there.

[John] Yeah, I'm taking a huge risk here.

I'm on my other phone.

This other telephone ran out of credit.

Do you have that number on your phone?

[Joshua] Do you want me to call you back on it?

[John] Try to call it back and see if I can get it.

[Joshua] Got it.

So we were talking about...

[John] My erratic behavior here in Belize.

[Joshua] Yes.

And you said that essentially

anybody would react as you have.

[John] If they chose to stay here.

Most people would react by going I'm getting the hell

out of here.

And maybe my staying is the erratic part

to this unintelligable.

I don't know.

But I'm here.

And I'm going through this.

And still going through it.

[Joshua] Yeah.

In terms of the case with Greg Faull,

I think there is a presumption of guilt at this point

in the public.

Simply because he lived two doors down from you.

He didn't like your dogs.

Your dogs were poisoned on Friday night.

It seems possible that you found out that he poisoned them

and took revenge.

[John] Again, and we've spoken about this before,

the idea that my neighbors may have done it

did in fact occur to me.

One of them, and the first one,

was the doctor next door

because he lives closest to me.

Greg lives way down the beach.

And I was even surprised he could even hear my dogs.

But both Greg and the doctor have dogs.

Love dogs.

A dog owner, a dog lover, is not going to poison

anybody's dog under any circumstances.

Now maybe they'd poison me, but not my dogs.

It's just not possible.

I did talk to the caretaker next door

that knows both of 'em.

His name is William,

and William said no there's just no way,

and I go yeah I didn't think so.

I agree.

So I don't know.

That's absurd.

[Joshua] And you didn't find out any more information

on Saturday that made you suspect Greg?

[John] Absolutely not.

[Joshua] Yeah.

As to your speculations of what might have happened to him?

[John] I do not have a clue.

The only information I have about him

is what you have told me

and what Cash or Priscilla had told me.

I had no idea that he was shot execution style.

I heard some things were missing.

You were the one who told me

it was a nine millimeter shell.

[Joshua] Yep.

[John] That's all I know.

That and no speculation other than the first thing

I thought about was oh my god,

he's a white man.

I'm a white man.

The government's finally decided to off me.

They got the wrong white man

since we live almost next door.

And that actually went through my mind

and actually scared me for quite a while.

[Joshua] Right.

What's the end game at this point?

[John] Well, you know, I don't have a clue, sir.

I am unable to move and that's clear.

My face is plastered,

all the police,

all the BDF have my photo.

It's a small country.

I am a white man with unique features.

If I leave this house,

I would be identified instantly.

For the foreseeable future this is my home.

Actually someone just had a birthday.

I just looked at this.

It says Happy Birthday.

And there's a name which I won't give you.

This is in the kitchen area.

I just noticed that.

I just turned around.

This is going to be my home.

I don't know what the end game is.

The end game is obviously given enough time

they will track me down.

I have to eat.

I have to have supplies.

I'm using a telephone

and they will eventually figure out which phone

and triangulate it.

It's just a matter of time.

In the meantime,

I'd like to get out as much information as I can

about the wrongs in this country.

And the wrongs by the way aren't the people.

The people are in spite of the poverty and the theft

and the petty crimes,

the people are truly truly beautiful.

The country, I've never seen a more spectacular place.

It is the destination of heaven.

The problem is political.

It's a brand new country.

It hasn't found its footing yet.

And the politicians by and large tend to enrich themselves

at the expense of the country as a whole.

This is the only problem they have here.

And the problem I'm not going to play that game

and I'm not going to go along with it

and I'm not going to keep quiet about it.

[Joshua] Why do you think that they're targeting you?

Why do you think the government is targeting you?

[John] Probably because number one

I'm one of the first foreigners to live here

that actually has bumped up against the government

and I have access to the press and had for a long time.

And that's my only weapon really.

And so I talk.

And I tell the truth.

It sheds a very negative light.

I mean for example in this country

now they can try you without a jury,

meaning you can be charged.

First of all they can hold you for 30 days

without even charging you.

Then you can be charged and the prime minister

or cabinet minister can choose an appropriate judge

to judge you,

and the judge can judge you any way he wishes.

No jury.

No due process.

This is where we stand.

And this is what's going to happen to me by the way

when I'm caught.

I will be held without charges if I survive the 30 days

which I doubt very strongly.

Lots of people do die in prison here

from restrain on their own vomit,

hanging themselves because they're too miserable,

getting beaten to death by fellow inmates

or a variety of other things.

And then of course it's not the government's fault.

He did wrong,

he got arrested,

and something happened to him.

But if I do survive that 30 days

then some judge will go you're guilty period.

[Joshua] Right.

[John] This is where we are.

This is not what should be happening

in the most beautiful country in the world.

It shouldn't be.

It shouldn't be.

[Joshua] Tell me more about what you perceive

to be the failings of the government.

[John] Well, Belize was founded by pirates.

The offspring of those pirates still reside here.

The country has an attitude,

that's the pirate attitude.

Govern by fear.

We collect our dues by extorsion.

We enforce through brutality.

And we get what we can.

We take our booty as it comes.

And that's the attitude of the government

and the ministers to an extreme.

So the corruption, the disregard for fellow man

in terms of the country outside of your own family,

is the fundamental problem.

That can change.

It has changed throughout history in many countries.

[Joshua] Talk about why you came to Belize

in the first place.

[John] I retired to Belize because to me

it's physically the most beautiful country on earth.

A barrier reef protects the shore line

and allows residents to build piers

and enjoy the seashore as if it were a calm lake

most of the year.

The water is a crystal aquamarine blue on sunny days.

It just invites you to come into it.

The fishing, the boating, swimming and snorkeling

is superb beyond anything I have imagined.

The interior of the country, the rivers, the jungles,

crocodiles, birds, wildlife, profoundly attractive to me.

The people simple in most cases.

And welcoming.

To me, where else would I retire?

[Joshua] Yeah.

Let's see, tick through some of the other allegations here.

[John] Sir, I've gotta hang up.

[Joshua] Alright.

(phone beeps)

[John] Yes sir.

[Joshua] Hi.

So I guess one question is if it's inevitable

that they will get you,

why not get a lawyer and turn yourself in?

[John] (laughing) Okay.

The last high-profile person to turn themself in was

shot in fact in police custody.

His name was Arthur Young.

He had his hands cuffed behind his back

and they shot him.

[Joshua] Right.

So the legal system there you don't have faith in

the due process?

[John] Well, now that the constitution has been

unraveled by the prime minister,

there is no due process.

There is no legal recourse.

The cabinet can override the judicial system apparently.

And the judicial system is loyal to the party

rather than to the law in many cases out of fear.

Not because the judges are corrupt,

but the judges are afraid.

Everybody is afraid.

If you do not tow the party line,

then retribution comes.

Either at the hands of the GSU which is the strong arm

of the prime minister.

Or through financial or other catastrophe.

So, no sir, I do not.

[Joshua] Right.

Okay, what else?

I think that basically covers,

oh yeah I remember.

[John] Okay, I would like to say one thing.

That I think the American public needs to know this.

That there are pleasant people,

extremely fine people who are right now suffering in jail

undoubtedly undergoing torture of some sort

that leaves no scars

that need to be released.

I'm the one that they want,

and holding my friends is not going to get them anywhere.

So I would just like to say that, sir.

[Joshua] Right.

One of

[John] My friends by name Eddie Antona,

Cash Enshalvaria,

William Mulligan,

and I do not know Cesar the taxi driver's last name.

His only crime was driving me from my house into town.

[Joshua] And these are people.

[John] I'm sorry.

These are people who've been arrested

and are still being held.

You know what happens in Central American jails

in order to get information.

So I fully expect to have signed statements saying

that God knows what.

That yes he had the gun.

We saw him have the gun.

He told everyone.

Whatever.

Who wouldn't?

I would do it myself.

If you put enough pain on someone,

they will say or sign anything.

[Joshua] Right.

[John] But these people need to be released.

And I would like to implore the prime minister

to do the right thing and release them.

[Joshua] Right.

Some of the other allegations that have cropped up

detail your discussions of your

[John] One allegation which you did not address

and sure everyone in this country is saying

well the reason he returned to drugs

is because the young girls that he hangs with

got him into drugs.

I think you know that the reverse is absolutely true.

Okay, I'm here with Sam who

Sam can say.

When's the last time you've had any drugs or alcohol, Sam?

It's been a while because I will not hang with them

if they continue to drink and do drugs.

This is a fact.

You know this

if you've been with me.

So they're not turning me onto drugs.

I'm turning them off of drugs.

And it's a requirement of my conditioning.

You're not going to be hanging with me

if you're drinking and drugging.

It's a fact.

[Joshua] Well one of the allegations are that

not that you're drinking or that you're using

traditional narcotics,

but you're using drugs such as MDVP that libido enhancers.

[John] Drugs are drugs.

The libido enhancers that I use,

I will be frank with you,

I sometimes do use Viagra, okay?

I don't know that it enhances my libido

but it does enhance my virility, okay?

But drugs are drugs.

Anything that modifies your consciousness,

warps your perceptions is a drug.

I don't care.

And maybe you say coffee does that.

I don't know.

But I do drink coffee.

But still.

Drugs are still drugs.

I don't care what the name is.

[Joshua] And these allegations that you use drugs

to get women to sleep with you or for you to keep up

with younger women.

[John] Okay, I'm a rich man in a poor country.

And I still have some small amount of charisma left.

I hope I will never have to resort to drugging women

to get them to sleep with me.

[Joshua] Yeah.

[John] Anyway, sir, I need to get off this phone.

I'm just afraid

[Joshua] That's fine.

We can take a little time here.

I'll put this stuff online.