Power, Policy, and AI Governance

[upbeat instrumental music]

Let me tell you a little bit about this woman,

because Michelle leads a multimillion dollar

portfolio at Omidyar

focused on making technology serve society,

something that we like here at Wired.

And you guys have been a driving force

in responsible tech and in AI governance,

you have backed more than

100 organizations working to build

a more equitable digital future.

And I'm not even talking about you yet,

because you bring deep legal,

and policy expertise to all of the questions

that Omidyar is working on.

You help lead global public policy at Google.

You co-directed

the 2020 Global Election Integrity Team.

You worked in civil rights law,

you worked in government,

like you've had an incredible career.

I'm very, very excited to talk to you.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

[audience applauding]

Okay, I'm gonna start with like

a bit of a layup,

but I think it will help us establish

like your point of view on this conversation.

So, Michelle,

I'm sorry for the obvious question,

but artificial intelligence obviously,

is developed using vast, vast, vast, vast,

vast, unfathomable quantities of data.

Who truly owns that data?

Is it people?

Is it platforms?

Is it the systems themselves?

How are you thinking about

that question of ownership right now?

So first off,

it is so great to be here with you,

and I'm glad we're like all warm

because I was really cold this morning, [laughs]

So like I'm- It is very cold here.

I'm really happy to be here.

So I wanna like take something

that I think is underneath that question.

[Katie] Sure.

Which is actually, who has power,

and who has the ability,

and the recourse to use that data?

So I think at a surface level,

I would say obviously I own my data,

and I own my information,

and who I am and how I show up.

Yeah.

Digital rights activists.

[Katie laughs]

So that's the first question,

but the real question is,

how is that information used and who owns that?

And I think if we are honest

about the conversation that we've had,

we've created and enabled a system

that basically says that I can take my image,

my likeness, my information,

my art, my creativity,

and I can monetize that.

And I don't necessarily

have to be compensated or made aware of that.

I think John Chu laid it out so eloquently.

There was a moment where very early on

in the face,

and because we wanted this technology

to move so fast,

we made some early decisions.

And because of that, we are now dealing with

the repercussions of that question.

And there is a decision point

that we have as a society

where we have to ask the question,

is this the direction we feel comfortable moving?

And I think often we don't stop,

and ask that question, who has power?

Who has recourse?

Who has the ability to change the direction?

And you know, I am so fortunate,

I've had a wonderful career

working for amazing members of Congress,

and state and local levels.

I've worked at some of the most

amazing tech companies in the world,

but there's always a question of power

that undergirds it.

And that's really the conversation about data.

And so you used to oversee

Public Policy Partnerships at Google.

Tell us a little bit about that.

And let's say you were still in that role.

How might you think about

data ownership differently than you do now?

So I was at Google

at such a really special time,

and shout out,

I know there's some Googlers in here,

and former Googlers and no.

Okay, no zero.

It's just me?

Okay, all right.

Whatever.

And it was such a important experience

for me in my overall career.

There's something about showing up at the table

with amazing product design leaders.

Marketing.

The marketing people always had the money.

So you always had to have marketing.

Trust and safety professionals.

And we have the ability to walk into a room,

and really look at a product

or an idea or a challenge.

And there was this beautiful collective

around the room,

but I never forgot

that I was able to be in that room,

and there were so many people who could not.

And so I think right now,

the question that I talk to all of my friends,

and my mentors still

in many of these companies is,

who is missing from that room

before you launch the product?

What are the voices

that aren't really showing up?

And what are the perspectives?

And that's not just like a nice squishy,

I feel good about that.

That's actually something

that will affect markets,

that will affect design.

I tore my ACL recently,

and there were questions of accessibility

that I never had to contemplate before.

And I think so often when we design,

we forget that there are people

who could help us make a better product,

but we don't ask the question,

Who's in the room?

And who's missing and who should be there.

And so we spend a lot of time

developing and supporting

the social infrastructure, the civil society,

thought leaders, the researchers,

the academics, the small NGOs,

the new technologists, the startups

who are filling in those gaps

that sometimes when you're at that big level,

you forget are there,

and are so necessary to the conversation.

And when you think about,

I mean, we're talking about

artificial intelligence,

we're talking about power.

We're talking about who has a seat

at the table, who's in the room.

There is a future being created

for all of us right now in the context of AI.

Have we made progress in terms of

who has that power?

Who is in the room

who has a seat at those tables?

What does that look like to you?

So I want everybody to repeat after me.

Oh.

Okay?

This is a first for today.

AI is not destiny.

[Audience Members] AI.

Is not destiny.

[Audience Members] Is not destiny,

It is design.

Okay.

You guys, come on.

Come on.

Is not destiny.

[Audience Members] Is not destiny.

It is design.

The reason I lead with that is,

there are intentional choices

that have been made for us,

and yet we are still early enough

in this technology.

And this is an amazing transformative technology,

and the ability that we have,

and the things that we can do.

Quite frankly, I get bored

because I don't think we have a big enough

ambition for this moment.

But in order to shift that,

you need intentional choices made.

And in order to have those choices made,

and new people coming to the table,

and new designs,

and new startups and new buildings,

and new kind of even mindsets of what's necessary

for this moment,

that's an intentional governance question.

That's society saying,

I want agency in this moment,

and I don't wanna feel like

I'm being left behind.

So many people feel like AI is happening

to them.

Yes. And not with them.

[Katie] Yeah.

And so we spend a lot of time

at Omidyar Network thinking about agency.

And again, it circles back to this idea

about power.

And so if you can create the condition

so that there are more people

who feel like I can be a startup creator.

I can get access to compute and dataset.

Why?

Because SB 53 just got launched,

and Cal Compute is there,

and now I can have access at a time

where I didn't have that before.

There are reasons why we make decisions

about governance

that can change literally

the course of how we will meet this moment.

But you have to be intentional

about those choices.

I know when we were talking

before this session, we chatted about fair use,

and you had some really interesting

thoughts about that.

I'm hoping that you can sort of share

that a little bit more with all of us.

I'm trying to think of the PG version.

Oh.

Of this conversation.

Go PG 13 if you want.

PG 13.

Okay.

So look.

Art, culture, design,

who we are,

these are cultural memory.

Each of us have a story that we can recall.

I show up in the world,

and part of the reason I believe

so deeply about this technology is,

I have all of these memories

of watching Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Picard is the best captain.

Okay.

That's not a question, that's a fact.

Yes.

Growing up and watching that with my family,

but that was someone's imagination,

and they came up with the design,

and they came up with the script,

and they put these things together,

and they put them out into the world.

And there was this idea that you could look at

that information and that would help you

make different ideas about what you thought

was possible.

And now are in the system where some people,

their whole world had been to create

that set or that design

or that script or that piece of art.

And then we're like,

Oh yeah, I'm just gonna take it.

And even though this is the most

powerful transformative

technology in history,

we can't figure out how to continue

to support and find some remuneration

or compensation for those creators.

[Katie] Well, we can't figure it out

or we elect not to.

[Michele] Right.

We're making, these are all about

intentional choices.

And so I don't completely blame us

because this was the system

that we created, right.

We said that it's okay

to kind of extract value at any cost,

and we wanna support that.

And yet we're gonna meet a point

where do we only want the like slop

that comes out

or do we want something more?

And so I think the challenge is,

we're meeting that moment,

and we work with everybody

from Stanford and Howard Law

who we're looking at

what's a creative fair use licensing

structure that can make

a difference in this moment.

And it is not just because we're like,

Oh, this is a good thing to do.

It is because I want those ideas.

I want creators, I want artists,

I want actors, I want writers.

I want Wired to still be here in 40 and 50 years.

And so we have to think about how to do this,

and how to do this not with this binary,

you over here and me over here,

but how do we do it together?

[Katie] Now, I know the UN recently

proposed a global framework

for AI governance, right.

Including new standards,

data sharing systems,

an AI fund to support projects

in the global south,

which is fascinating.

But I'm curious for your point of view,

sort of at that macro lens.

How can and should laws,

and licensing systems evolve to keep up

with the pace of this technology?

What should that look like?

What can that look like?

What is possible?

Yeah.

And I wanna say this,

I think when people hear the word

governance, they're like,

slow.

That means slow down.

Yeah. Or that means

like anti-innovation.

Yeah.

And again, that is a false binary.

That's like a framework

that's been put out that says

that we as humans have no right to decide

what society looks like for us.

And that's just like a binary that I reject.

In fact, I want as Matthew Prince laid out,

I don't want five companies, I want 5,000.

I want 10,000.

And in order to create that,

those conditions, you have

to think about who has access,

who has funding, who has capital,

who has the opportunity to engage.

And I think right now

there are particular countries

outside of the US

that are feeling like they don't even

have a shot in this game.

[Katie] Yeah.

You know when you spend time at UNGA,

and you're meeting with countries

who are just trying to figure out

how they like get internet access to people

around the world and we are over here

about to release the newest frontier models,

it's like, Whoa.

We gotta figure this out together.

And that's not, again,

just like a cushy, I feel good.

I wanna like kumbaya.

It is because Africa is the youngest continent.

There are innovators

who are building out of nothing,

and that could be good for the whole world.

That could help us think about sustainability.

That could help us think about new futures.

So I think governance,

and having the opportunity to add resources

to places all over the world is a good thing.

And I think society will say that, yeah.

That feels good for me.

That feels like this technology

that I believe in.

There's access points for everyone.

And that's good.

I asked the mayor just to...

Yeah.

A few minutes ago about,

about billionaires, right?

Many of them who live and work in San Francisco.

How do you subvert that narrative?

How do you change that power structure

when you have someone

like Elon Musk who can just come out and say,

you know,

Humanoid robots will get rid of poverty,

no need to do much at all

because they've got it right.

How do you and he can post that,

and millions of people will see it.

Right.

And that's just one example

of the kinds of narratives

that are being created.

How can you,

how can we change that story?

Yeah.

So.

I mean. Yeah.

I know. These things are said.

It's real. With a straight face.

Right.

With a straight face.

So look,

I think there are a few things that I say.

So Star Wars fans in here.

Star Wars?

Okay.

So the thing about the rebellion,

I tore my...

Yeah, I'm just like gonna go there

because I think it helps.

The thing about the rebellion is that

they lost for a really long time.

Right.

You know, everybody loves Yoda,

but like they were losing for a really long time.

And what happened was that there were seeds

that were planted in a lot of different galaxies,

and universe before you were able

to see this kind of overwhelming

engagement where people were connected.

That's kind of how I think about Omidyar Network.

My team is like, Really?

This is what she thinks about?

This is how I think about.

I think about like, we are at Coruscant,

and we are trying to figure out

how do we put seeds all over

that are actually gonna move this ship

in the direction we wanna see

of what's possible.

Because right now the only stories you hear,

and the only voices you hear

are the same five or six names.

And like, that's just a boring story,

that's not even interesting.

What is interesting is some of the work

that we see coming out of places like

the AI Now Institute

or Idris Brewster who's doing stuff

at Kinfolk Tech

that's working with creatives and AI and VR,

and like, I want their names

on par with all of the names

that we've talked about today

because they are on

the cutting edge of innovation.

And yet we crowd out their names and their voices

and the things that people are doing.

And what I'm really interested is,

is building up the rebellion

in all these disconnected places,

giving them resources, the capital,

the incentives, the voice,

the pulpit so that when we have that opportunity,

you're gonna see this overwhelming wave.

And people outside are saying like,

they're kind of tired of hearing the word Elon.

Like if you look at your like, Thread yarn thing,

which was very cool, Katie.

Oh.

Like people are tired

of some of those same names.

And so our goal is like,

do we lift up enough of the stories?

Do we let people see

that there is something else happening out there

in the galaxy, in the universe,

and can we support that work?

You talk at the start of the session

about the...

[Michele] Yes,

Yes, yes. [laughs]

You talked at the start of the session

about the ambition of AI,

and this feeling that you have that it has not,

and is not realizing its ambition.

And in my head I was just thinking about SORA 2,

you know?

Yeah. And I was just like,

This is what we're doing?

Like? Yeah.

[Michele] Yeah.

What does that promise look like to you?

What is the most ambitious articulation

of artificial intelligence to you?

Yeah. If and when

the rebellion is won.

The rebellion is happening.

It is happening right now.

So when I was watching

like many of you dev day this year,

and like,

look, there were some really interesting moments,

but for the most part it was like,

how quickly can I get to Etsy?

No, no shade.

No shade to Etsy.

Okay.

But it was like,

how quickly can I spend more money

or access another way to kind of

have greater productivity or efficiency tools?

And I'm like,

this is the greatest technology

that we've had in like 50 years.

And all we're focusing on

is how to spend more money?

Well, and we're making funny videos.

Don't forget.

And making funny videos

like dog and cat videos.

Okay. Yes.

And so I'm like,

this is a moment where we can literally,

and when you ask the American people,

like 82% of the American people

believe AI should help to cure cancer,

and to help with individualized education plans.

I have a neurodivergent daughter.

And so like, the future for her

can look so differently

if there's a different type of education system

that she can engage.

Those are the ideas that all of us

in here we're like, Yes.

This can solve climate change,

but right now we are just going to make a video.

Yeah. And it's just like. [laughs]

And so like, the ambition is so small.

We used to like go to the moon,

like that was a thing.

We said we're going to the moon.

And we looked up and we're like,

We're gonna figure it out.

And right now we like,

I feel like we looked down,

and we don't even like look down.

We like look at a dot at the end of a paper.

And so it just feels so small.

So I want so much more for us.

And in order to do that,

you have to set up the component parts

to do it.

You have to have public compute.

You have to have access to data sets,

you have to have academics,

and researchers and scientists and young people.

And yesterday I was at Y Combinator

for the startup demo day.

And when you meet,

and you're in the room

with some of the startup founders,

most of them by and large

are still doing productivity.

But every now and then there's a spark of someone

who has an idea that is going

to change the world.

I want more of that.

And so when we do that together,

and like those people get access

to capital and ideas and compute,

then I know we're on the right path.

[audience applauding]

So you are,

you know, leading the rebellion in many ways.

You have so many ideas about-

Light saber in hand.

what real ambition in the context

of technology can and should look like.

What about everyone here?

What about everyone watching at home,

everybody watching on video?

How can people and communities actually

tangibly get involved?

How can they assert control?

How can they you know,

have a degree of autonomy,

and license in the future

that's being charted for them?

What would you tell everyone here

if they said to you, What can I do?

The rebellion that's happening,

where do I sign up?

Well, first off,

you are already an AI expert.

It is in every part of your life.

It is in your smartphone.

It is what you do when you're going online,

and you're making a search.

You're already an expert.

And so first it is

the affirmation that you deserve

to be in this conversation,

and that your voice and your idea is worthy.

So that's the first thing.

We just gotta start affirming people.

If you need a little post-it,

put it in your bathroom every morning,

I'm an AI expert.

Okay. So that's the first thing.

The second is,

there are so many places,

and choices that we can take our resources,

and we can move the market incentives.

Earlier you had Daniello on stage,

300,000 companies

are moving over to anthropic

because they believe that there's a trust

that this is somebody

who is thinking about it

more than just at

a transaction transactional level.

You can make a choices choice

with your resources.

There are a number of NGOs

who are working on these issues.

And I said a few of them today,

but in every state around the country,

there are people who are working on these issues.

If you don't know what to do, fund them.

Support them.

We do not have enough money to support everybody.

We can.

But if everybody in here identifies

one or two organizations

that are doing AI safety research,

that are thinking about healthcare and education,

and you give them $10 a month,

you are making a major difference

in the group,

and the members of the rebellion

who can walk into this game.

I think.

And finally, there are different stories

that we need to be telling.

John Chu was fabulous,

and he's the only person

who has more kids than me.

I have four and he has five. [laughs]

And, but he's a storyteller.

But the belief about what is possible.

He grew up here and he said,

like, I knew that I could do it.

I think right now we're so beat down,

and we're so depressed

and we're like,

This thing is just happening

and I can't stop it.

I wanna change that story.

So tell a different story about this moment.

You don't have to quote the same guys

who get on your nerves.

You can talk about so many other people

who are doing good work.

And if we change those narratives,

I think you'll see greater,

and greater ideas about what's possible.

[Katie] Michele, thank you so much.

[Michele] Thank you Katie.

Leading the rebellion.

You mean that?

[Katie] Yes.

[audience applauding]

Oh. [laughs]

[upbeat instrumental music]